– In the summary of the meeting, “Why do we need the science in Russia?”, which takes place on Wednesday at the Science Week in Moscow with the leadership of RAS, Fano and the Ministry of Education , you say the following: “At the present time, the Russian government is developing a strategy of scientific and technological development of the country in the long term, which will define the priorities of the state science and technology policy. In all likelihood, this will be a fundamental document for us. ” What do you already know about this concept?
– I have this vision of one eye has seen – and maybe even read. Any concept consists of a general part, which is usually scrolled, and a set of specific actions, which is read carefully. With a set of concrete actions in the concept of scientific and technological development is not very good.
Two and a half years since the adoption of the reform of the RAS, and that during this time there? Nothing.
Although if more precisely – nothing wrong with that. For our institution, for example, there have been good changes we building finally got – and this for us is vitally important event.
– Here, scientists complain that pile of papers you need to fill out …
– This is partly true. Of course, the number of securities has doubled. But why has doubled? The Academy of Sciences continue to send paper and paper still sends Fano. Fano, like any new organization, wants to do an inventory. This is understandable: the initial flow should be higher than the steady-state. But I tell you what: if the institution is organized correctly, these securities nor to what scientists do not reach. Here we ask any employee, whether he knows about these papers. Any employee replied that he knows nothing. So there must be a normal bureaucracy in each institution, which reacts to it and not let it all depth.
Yes, our administrative apparatus became busier – but this thing is so small that it is not even worth discussing.
– What do you think about the merger of the institutions in the reform?
– Mergers, of course, are wonderful – sometimes combined, for example, three institutes located In different cities. But these institutions themselves have proposed a merger – combined force nobody. What will happen next, I do not know. While there is no general idea (what we want), it is meaningless to talk about the effectiveness of mergers.
In general, it is not visible from the obvious benefits of the Joint Institute – but not visible and obvious damage. Well divided one institution two – injury here no there.
– But outraged taxpayers say why the two institutions engaged in the same, while you can make one institution but strong?
– They do not make the same! What they do, and continue to do so: it does not depend on mergers. At a national level it is a very small question, which has no value.
The problem is different: in the country science degrades annual hourly. And it goes on for 25 years.
Here’s what you need to stop, and not of the Joint Institute. Without science, a great power can not exist.
Most taxpayers do not even realize what they pay for. They do not understand that the same wi-fi was developed over many years of huge scientific cooperation. This scientific cooperation is going to 12 times a year, discusses his development, voice … But people think that all the engineers invent, although engineers – this is the third element in the creation of any product. In every new industrial product invested a huge amount of science. As Sarkozy said, the electricity did not arise as a result of the modernization of candles.
– And outraged taxpayers can say that in many institutions still have a huge number of employees nearly retirement age, who come to work, do do not (they even do not have a computer), reading the newspaper and drinking tea. What to do?
– I will say this: people who are not engaged in scientific work, must not be employees of institutions.
– But these employees are! And the Institute of Russian Academy of Sciences, and universities.
– The universities at least they have to read a lecture. But, by the way, in universities such employees have a much worse because they are engaged in the education of young people. Because of this we have already over Soviet engineering school, and the new has not started yet. And the worst thing – we are not on it they start. School of Engineering, which existed just stop living as a technology.
So the question of what to do with those who are not working, like the question of what to do with those, who steal.
On the other hand, there can not be perfectly linear: because everyone has their own task, its function. Young more than writing articles, writing books more than mature and engaged in the education of young people. Everything happens in a normal family organized: there is a grandmother who does not work like anything, but without it all fall apart.
– you are talking about the collapse of the Russian engineering school. And all of the technologies invented in the West, can still play Russian scientists?
– Come play. Much worse, when you just can not understand how it is done.
– and that this situation can be done?
– I’m not an administrator, I I do not know what to do. But the government should know how to handle it. Soviet time was not perfect, but then there was a bridge between the needs of the state and the possibilities of science.
– Maybe this bridge must be the Academy of Sciences? Especially since the Ministry of Education has been criticized constantly RAS that it does not use its functions – to operate all basic science in the country.
– I do not like the word “academy”, because it includes three completely different meaning. The first sense – a gathering of people (mostly the very elderly), the second – 100 thousand. Employees, the third – the so-called Presidency, which now does not control.
– It seems that the ministry meant Guide Academy of Sciences.
– I do not understand what the “leaders of the Academy of Sciences” and what it can do.
Academy today as Institute powerless. This institution, which has a zero functionality.
– A Fano?
– Personally, I have a good impression of Fano. Yes, people who have to work not on a specialty – but they try to figure out the best of their ability. In terms of finance, for example, they all do a lot better than the Academy of Sciences. Ridiculous from Fano to demand that they offered his concept of scientific and technological development. It’s like I put the deputy minister of finance – from me would not proc.
– Returning to the first question … who still have to write the concept of scientific and technological development?
– There is no such person, and there is no such organization. In the USSR such a mechanism existed – although it was not perfect. And now the state can not even articulate their goals and objectives. The state has already fifty years is not self-sufficient in food. After all, in order to feed themselves, need science. In addition (and this is the worst), there is no understanding that this goal is generally necessary. It is clear that if, for example, is now breaking the old scientific school, you need to have a plan for 30-40 years to come.
We need concrete ideas – how to do, what to do, who to report to. The problem of the Academy of Sciences, for example, is that it does not have the customer, there is a consumer. And so all the results in absurd settings: let’s write more articles! And what does it mean? Nothing. The problem is that there is a large misunderstanding in all. And sometimes “salami slicing” – when one result is cut into 10 articles that have more publications.
But the worst thing that anyone in Russia does not need anything. This is the most unpleasant and most global. This is the harsh truth of life. We have no responsibility.
It is believed that the biggest problem – is corruption. But corruption is everywhere. It’s like drinking: drinking everywhere, just somewhere more somewhere less.
The main problem in our country – irresponsibility. To anyone not need to be accountable. Here in the Soviet Union people were responsible, including the threat of execution. Now, they are not responsible for what is not done and should have done. And in this situation, just blooming corruption. But a person must personally be responsible for the result. And Russia should be just such an approach.
– You say that nobody nothing. But there is also a business that is constantly needed technological development …
– Our non-state business – it is something close to zero. Small business is insolvent. And big companies such as “Rosneft”, support for technological development is not necessary – it’s a huge cost. Today, in contrast to what it was 50 years ago, the science does not pay for the business and the state. And so everywhere. No private company in the fundamental science of money are not spending. Fundamental physics and mathematics by private companies, of course, do not pay. The money gives only the state.
In general, investing in basic science very recently declined. And that’s too bad, because without science country becomes completely powerless. Without scientific school of any state absolutely can not do anything.
Of course, life without science can be – the same people in Nigeria live. There are number of people in Russia, about 150 million people, or more. There are oil pipe, as in Russia. But science is not there and can not be. Because if there will be a conditional “Newton”, he can not work there, it will not have conditions for it, he goes abroad.
We can abandon science but then we will have life in Nigeria.
But even in such a small country like Switzerland, is a science. And if you look not on the number, and specific indicators, it will be the most powerful in the world of science.
Our global problem is that Russian science is no query. And she is drifting without a rudder – like an iceberg in the ocean.
– Discussion of science in Russia is a part of Science Week in Moscow – Moscow Science Week . What is the event?
– There is the problem primarily populyarizatsionnaya. The idea that scientists listen to the speakers of another discipline, and so there are interdisciplinary areas. 20 years, it was not! Moscow Science Week is useful by the fact that we bring to it people’s professional skills, who can talk about their profession that interested wider audience.
All of the major achievements of mankind for the last 50 years – interdisciplinary.
But it is important to engage and mononaukami, because without them the development of interdisciplinary courses are not there. And by the way, people involved mononaukami are open to other sciences. Multidisciplinary – it’s a very useful thing. It happens that biologist comes to math performance – and eventually obtained joint scientific publications.
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